tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5793693390023574357.post4868831560245717687..comments2023-08-13T05:43:11.347-07:00Comments on Five Pint Lutheran: The Case for Infant BaptismDavid Cochranehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08632064391675580145noreply@blogger.comBlogger21125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5793693390023574357.post-45982396487502100222011-08-17T15:49:00.655-07:002011-08-17T15:49:00.655-07:00Im impressed. I dont think Ive met anyone who know...Im impressed. I dont think Ive met anyone who knows as much about this subject as you do. Youre truly well informed and very intelligent. You wrote something that people could understand and made the subject intriguing for everyone. Really, great blog youve got here.Alprazolamhttp://xanax.namenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5793693390023574357.post-80313015491811835822010-05-26T12:09:55.513-07:002010-05-26T12:09:55.513-07:00If you Lutherans are trying to say that your ways ...If you Lutherans are trying to say that your ways are the only way.. and that in order to be a Christian you must be a Lutheran. To say the least, I would completely disagree with you. One of the ways to tell if someone is wrong is by seeing fruit of the church. If the church isn’t growing, having non-believers come in, producing disciples to go out into the world to share Jesus, etc. Then it’s pretty easy to see if God is or isn’t at work in the church. I was brought up Lutheran, baptized an infant, got confirmed, and so on. I didn’t receive Christ as my Savior until I was 17 years old. I don't believe in infant baptism at all, but rather in “those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day. Acts 2:41”And that all Christians are saved by grace through faith-and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God. Ephesians 2:8. And being born again consists when you personally accept Jesus Christ as your savior and die to yourself. That’s when and only when a spiritual change happens. A baby can’t accept it. And to say that millions upon millions of babies dying every year in other countries or whomever isn’t baptized are going to hell is incorrect. God is an all loving God and wouldn’t let people go to hell who can’t even accept Jesus’ salvation. When Jesus says “I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit” refers water as a sign of repentance just like in Matthew 3. <br /><br />Regardless of everything else you may believe about baptism, this proves that you don’t have to be baptized to be saved: Luke 23:40-43. One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: "Aren't you the Christ? Save yourself and us!" But the other criminal rebuked him. "Don't you fear God," he said, "since you are under the same sentence? We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong." Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom." <br /> Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."<br /> <br />But does that mean I leave Lutherans condemned? Absolutely not! And if you Lutherans or anyone believe people are condemned for getting baptized more than once and remain believing in it the rest of their life then I’m here to tell you that your completely wrong with your thoughts and tradition. The bible is for anyone one to read, the Holy Spirit is the person that guides us and teaches us. If we are to go by tradition of a certain denomination all the time, it’s to only deceive ourselves. The Bible alone is and should be our guideline for life. Certainly God puts people in our life to help us understand some things, but if we’re trying to understand what only a pastor or tradition believes in by seeing how he or they define it.. then that’s not right.<br /><br />I would love to say more. But “Do everything without complaining or arguing, so that you may become blameless and pure, children of God without fault in a crooked and depraved generation, in which you shine like stars in the universe as you hold on to the word of life.” Philippians 2:14-16Adamnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5793693390023574357.post-81350806673654614492010-05-04T09:15:51.251-07:002010-05-04T09:15:51.251-07:00Anonymous,
Matthew 28:19-20a Therefore go and mak...Anonymous,<br /><br />Matthew 28:19-20a Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.<br /><br />You said: an infant can not be made into a disciple.<br /><br />Jesus said disciples are made by baptizing and teaching. Infants can receive baptism and are always being taught. Please consider the words of Jesus over church tradition or human reasoning.<br /><br />God's peace. †David Cochranehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08632064391675580145noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5793693390023574357.post-14021530679714541222010-05-03T06:16:57.195-07:002010-05-03T06:16:57.195-07:00notice first you must make disciples then baptize....notice first you must make disciples then baptize. an infant can not be made into a disciple. I do not feel you have enough basis for your points.<br /><br />what is a disciple? someone who has accepted Jesus as their savior and who does what the bible says.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5793693390023574357.post-85082731459385763762009-11-16T00:17:45.546-07:002009-11-16T00:17:45.546-07:00In addition to, we purvey lessen Viagra apothecary...In addition to, we purvey lessen Viagra apothecary, which is kind of noticeable in make use of than other trendy <a href="http://ipod-playlist.com/" rel="nofollow">generic Cialis Online</a> Erectile dysfunction Cialis apothecary online drugs.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5793693390023574357.post-71009354555713043212009-11-11T04:39:15.821-07:002009-11-11T04:39:15.821-07:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5793693390023574357.post-17419394301406729332008-12-20T14:26:00.000-07:002008-12-20T14:26:00.000-07:00I've written 4 articles in a 6 parts series in def...I've written 4 articles in a 6 parts series in defense of Baptismal Regeneration and Infant Baptism. You can find them at www.concordiajt.org , and then click on "His Word is Truth" articles and go to the bottom of that page. I still have two more articles to write in this series (in January and February of 2009). The Lord be with you all!<BR/><BR/>Pastor Tom Eckstein<BR/>Concordia (LCMS), Jamestown, NDAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5793693390023574357.post-83756577130038018452008-08-19T06:34:00.000-07:002008-08-19T06:34:00.000-07:00Oftentimes we feel like the oddballs in many group...Oftentimes we feel like the oddballs in many groups. My husband and I believe in infant baptism for several reasons. Paedobaptists live in a theological world dominated by credobaptists.<BR/><BR/>Dr. Bucher did a commendable job in laying out why people practice infant baptism. Thank you for posting the article.<BR/><BR/>Praise God that baptism is about Christ's redemption for sinners. It is always God's work in us. Everything is.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01291223160654184593noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5793693390023574357.post-16863436831553097852008-08-10T12:41:00.000-07:002008-08-10T12:41:00.000-07:00Nemo,God's blessings as you work through all this ...Nemo,<BR/><BR/>God's blessings as you work through all this stuff. <BR/><BR/>pacem domine. †David Cochranehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08632064391675580145noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5793693390023574357.post-32164744049950075142008-08-09T11:10:00.000-07:002008-08-09T11:10:00.000-07:00David,“I am not sure how you read into what I have...David,<BR/><BR/>“I am not sure how you read into what I have said that we should baptize rejectors of Jesus.”<BR/><BR/>--I was trying to find where the line was—who you would not baptize. When you declined to agree with me after my first and second post, I began to wonder.<BR/><BR/>“We go by what the person confesses.”<BR/><BR/>--Isn’t that what I’ve been saying all along? That’s why there is a confession written into the service. Why, then, do you baptize an infant in the absence of a confession, when you would not do such a thing for an adult?<BR/><BR/>“If they were later to reject thier faith will in no way say the baptism was incomplete.”<BR/><BR/>--I’ve never argued otherwise.<BR/><BR/>I knew you were going to appeal to your background when I asked you to leave other views alone. I’ll do the same. I was born, baptized, and confirmed in the Lutheran church, but have since left it due to both the lack of a strong Lutheran church in the area I moved to, and the fact that I found (or was led) to a church that, in my experience, outdoes the Lutherans in depth of theology. Now I am reevaluating my background, and am attempting to see how much of Lutheran theology can be defended. Above are the questions I could not answer regarding infant baptism. As I said earlier, I held that infant baptism was doctrinally sound until I began to read what Scripture had to say on the topic. I presented a point by point refutation to the article you posted, and so far there hasn’t been even an attempt to refute or explain away my objections. <BR/><BR/>Comparing your view to others is fine; dragging theirs down rather than building yours up is not. You tell me that Lutherans believe baptism belongs to Jesus (and apparently believe you are unique in that) while other denominations turn it into a symbol or a work. This doesn’t help me in the least, because they say the same thing—and would insist that the Lutheran view of baptism turns it into a work. As I said before—and this is based on my experience both within and outside of the Lutheran church—I don’t put much stock in the Lutheran description of another denomination (and vice versa). Hence, I am thoroughly examining Lutheran doctrine/practice and measuring it not only against its own confession, but also against Scripture.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5793693390023574357.post-63156775917510642622008-08-08T15:01:00.000-07:002008-08-08T15:01:00.000-07:00Nemo,I am not sure how you read into what I have s...Nemo,<BR/><BR/>I am not sure how you read into what I have said that we should baptize rejectors of Jesus. We go by what the person confesses. If they were later to reject thier faith will in no way say the baptism was incomplete.<BR/><BR/>As far as referring to baptistic and reformed views I have been both baptist and reformed. Those were my understanding at the time when I belonged to those denoms. It is an incomplete discussion to state what one believes is true and not compare and contrast the opposing views. Any theological writing I have ever read does this. If you see I have mischaracterized a view by all means correct me my friend. <BR/><BR/>God's peace. †David Cochranehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08632064391675580145noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5793693390023574357.post-12652685060888688092008-08-08T11:21:00.000-07:002008-08-08T11:21:00.000-07:00Steve,I know Luther was an advocate in infant bapt...Steve,<BR/><BR/>I know Luther was an advocate in infant baptism (please credit me with a basic theological understanding here). It’s just that when I read his defense of it, I have to disregard major parts of what he says about baptism in general. Am I misreading the sections I quoted, specifically the parts that said: “faith alone makes the person worthy to receive profitably the saving, divine water…[w]ithout faith it profits nothing,” and “For by suffering the water to be poured upon you, you have not yet received Baptism in such a manner that it benefits you anything.”<BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/>David,<BR/><BR/>Would I then be correct in concluding that you see no problem with baptizing an adult who doesn’t have faith, in the hope that faith which will later be bestowed by the Holy Spirit will cling to the baptism?<BR/><BR/>Also, please refrain from telling me how others view baptism. Attacking their view, rather than defending your own, is not convincing. I have found most Lutheran characterizations of other denominations to be incomplete at best, and wrong at worst. Can you stick to explaining your doctrine, and let other people explain theirs?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5793693390023574357.post-39530109886035890252008-08-08T10:50:00.000-07:002008-08-08T10:50:00.000-07:00Nemo,No it does not save by going thru the motions...Nemo,<BR/><BR/>No it does not save by going thru the motions. It saves us by the resurrection of Jesus from the dead. This is received by faith. If a person later rejects the faith given baptism does not save him. The same would be true of an older person hearing a sermon, responding with joy to the gift of salvation and later falling away. i.e The parable of the seed.<BR/><BR/>The point is that baptism belongs to Jesus and is his work. The baptistic types look at it as our work. Similarly the reformed look at it as the church's way to make a baby a member but does not convey forgiveness of sin or gives the Holy Spirit.<BR/><BR/>God's peace. †David Cochranehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08632064391675580145noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5793693390023574357.post-6144719588684786922008-08-08T09:35:00.000-07:002008-08-08T09:35:00.000-07:00Nemo, I think you are misreading Luther. Luther...Nemo,<BR/><BR/> I think you are misreading Luther. Luther was a huge believer in infant baptism. He was baptised as an infant.<BR/><BR/> Take a look at Luther's piece on re-baptising. That should help to understand what Luther thinks of baptism.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5793693390023574357.post-77719968216657142462008-08-08T07:18:00.000-07:002008-08-08T07:18:00.000-07:00“Baptism is a gift given to the church but it is t...“Baptism is a gift given to the church but it is to be used as instituted by our Lord Jesus not as we see fit.”<BR/><BR/>Again, you’re stating the obvious rather than arguing a point. Of course it is to be “used as instituted by our Lord Jesus.” No one is disputing that. What I am trying to do is determine how Jesus intended it to be used.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5793693390023574357.post-48902563999141178522008-08-08T06:15:00.000-07:002008-08-08T06:15:00.000-07:00Steve,Am I misrepresenting Walther and Luther, or ...Steve,<BR/><BR/>Am I misrepresenting Walther and Luther, or are you dismissing them?<BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/>David,<BR/><BR/>You completely sidestepped the issue. Why is there a confession of faith written into the baptismal service?<BR/><BR/>Are you arguing that baptism saves ex opere operato?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5793693390023574357.post-65728008627520570072008-08-08T05:54:00.000-07:002008-08-08T05:54:00.000-07:00Nemo,We dont line everyone up and baptize them wil...Nemo,<BR/><BR/>We dont line everyone up and baptize them willy nilly because the second part is teaching. Adult instruction is not to grind a confession of faith out of them but rather to teach them the Christian faith.<BR/><BR/>Many times we have seen people desire baptism prior to the end of adult instruction. This happens after the session on baptism. In addtion after the sessions if a person believes in Jesus but does not accept the Lutheran postion on the sacraments or some other reason they do not join even if he or she was baptized.<BR/><BR/>Baptism is a gift given to the church but it is to be used as instituted by our Lord Jesus not as we see fit. That is the error of the baptistic types as it is understood as our action and is done for Jesus not done for our benefit.<BR/><BR/>God's peace. †David Cochranehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08632064391675580145noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5793693390023574357.post-63266343356769428392008-08-07T23:14:00.000-07:002008-08-07T23:14:00.000-07:00Nemo said: Conclusion"I believe we can agree that ...Nemo said:<BR/><BR/> Conclusion<BR/><BR/>"I believe we can agree that faith is the necessary condition for baptism."<BR/><BR/> You believe wrongly, Nemo. I don't agree with that statement at all. <BR/><BR/> Jesus didn't say go, find out who has faith and baptise them. He said "go... and baptise, and teach." Baptise comes before teach in the sentence.<BR/><BR/>A lot of people don't believe that God does anything in baptism. You are certainly not alone.<BR/><BR/>But the majority of the world's Christians do believe that God acts for us in baptism and gives us forgiveness of sins and the Holy Spirit. And the promise is for you and your children. (Acts 2)<BR/><BR/>Luther said that the Anabaptists (those against infant baptism) look at baptism the way that a cow looks at a new gate.<BR/>They can only imagine and believe in what is right in front of their nose. (The last sentence was mine)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5793693390023574357.post-69572923405025526132008-08-07T08:05:00.000-07:002008-08-07T08:05:00.000-07:00I have tried to accept the practice of infant bapt...I have tried to accept the practice of infant baptism, but remain unconvinced. In fact, I did believe it until actually searching the Scriptures on the topic in an attempt to reinforce by belief. Below are my thoughts.<BR/><BR/>I - Christ Has Commanded Us (Matthew 28:19: :”Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit . . ..”<BR/><BR/>If we are to baptize all nations, why not line them up and start sprinkling the water? Why, then, does the Lutheran church require a profession of faith during the baptismal ceremony (by adults, if they are old enough, and by the congregation, if the child cannot speak)? Why, in Acts, did baptism follow preaching?<BR/><BR/><BR/>II - Babies Need Forgiveness<BR/><BR/>Of course they do. Does the mere act of baptism give it to them? It is faith, not baptism, that saves. Or do you believe that baptism saves ex opere operato? (See the Thirty-third and Thirty-fourth lectures by by C.F.W. Walther for a refutation http://lutherantheology.com/uploads/works/walther/LG/)<BR/><BR/><BR/>III - Baptism Replaces Circumcision (a sign of the new covenant)<BR/><BR/>This is the most convincing argument, except for my understanding is that Lutherans don’t believe in “covenant theology”.<BR/><BR/>http://utah-lutheran.blogspot.com/2008/07/testament-not-covenant.html;<BR/>http://utah-lutheran.blogspot.com/2008/08/waters-of-salvation.html; http://www.geneveith.com/consortium-for-classical-lutheran-education/_734/#comments<BR/><BR/>There is another, more elaborate argument on this point, but I don’t have time to develop it right now.<BR/><BR/><BR/>IV - Infants Can Believe<BR/><BR/>Again, I agree. Infants can believe. But that begs the question, do they at the specific time and date of their baptism (and not before), which is planned by their parents and the pastor around the schedule of the church? Is the faith given by the Holy Spirit like a faucet that is turned on by the pastor at baptism and only at baptism? Is that not granting a lot of human control over the Holy Spirit? God calls who He wills, and it would be pretentious of us to presume to know who that is.<BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/>V - The Practice of the Early Church<BR/><BR/>I don’t have enough historical background to go into this one, but based on my limited understanding, this is under dispute. Needless to say, this argument does not carry the same weight as the others.<BR/><BR/><BR/>Conclusion<BR/><BR/>I believe we can agree that faith is the necessary condition for baptism.<BR/><BR/><BR/>“The truth is that Baptism and Holy Communion place any person under condemnation who does not approach them with faith in his heart. They are means of grace only for the reason that a divine promise has been attached to an external symbol. Having water poured on me is of no benefit to me. Nor am I benefited by actually receiving the body and blood of the Lord in the Holy Supper. Yea, I am rather harmed by going to Communion without faith, because I become guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. It is of paramount importance that I believe, that I regard, not the water in Baptism, but the promise which Christ has attached to the water. It is this promise that requires the water; for only to it has the promise been attached.” - C.F.W. Walther, “The Proper Distinction between Law and Gospel”<BR/><BR/>“faith alone makes the person worthy to receive profitably the saving, divine water. For, since these blessings are here presented and promised in the words in and with the water, they cannot be received in any other way than by believing them with the heart. 34] Without faith it profits nothing, notwithstanding it is in itself a divine superabundant treasure.” -Martin Luther, Large Catechism, “Holy Baptism”<BR/><BR/>“God’s works, however, are saving and necessary for salvation, and do not exclude, but demand, faith; for without faith they could not be apprehended. 36] For by suffering the water to be poured upon you, you have not yet received Baptism in such a manner that it benefits you anything; but it becomes beneficial to you if you have yourself baptized with the thought that this is according to God’s command and ordinance, and besides in God’s name, in order that you may receive in the water the promised salvation.” -Martin Luther, Large Catechism, “Holy Baptism”<BR/><BR/><BR/>The question remains, how do we presume to know the faith of another person absent their testimony/declaration? That an infant can believe does not mean that he does. Everyone can believe (be called by the Holy Spirit), but we do not baptize everyone.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5793693390023574357.post-73616572823475653002008-08-07T06:50:00.000-07:002008-08-07T06:50:00.000-07:00I agree with Hugh about the importance of raising ...I agree with Hugh about the importance of raising a child in the Church, teaching them the scriptures, about Jesus, and the great thing that has happened to them in baptism.<BR/><BR/>I was baptised as an infant and never raised in the (Roman Catholic) church. We almost never went to church and had no Christian education that I can remember at home.<BR/><BR/>But yet the Lord kept me in the promise of my baptism. And when faith came my baptism was complete. Much in the same way that I return to my baptism daily as I go through this life. I wander away from His promise (and Him) and He brings me back and keeps me.<BR/><BR/> As far as I know, the great reformers were all baptised as babies, and not re-baptised. I guess the Lord saw fit to honor their baptisms as He sees fit to honor ours.<BR/><BR/> Great article. Thanks St. David, and thanks Pastor Bucher!<BR/><BR/> - Steve MatinAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5793693390023574357.post-27212935617468751452008-08-06T05:05:00.000-07:002008-08-06T05:05:00.000-07:00Balanced article, it is important that the child a...Balanced article, it is important that the child after baptism is taught the holy scriptures and brought up as a member of God's covenant. I wandered away as a young man but God in His mercy brought this prodigal back. It is better though never to have wandered form the God I love.<BR/><BR/>hugh ioansant1Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com